tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post7730519925137976399..comments2023-10-22T06:54:40.529-04:00Comments on Identity Check: Unmistakably LawlessAnokhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05675278947623136467noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-55634871120038346232008-05-04T23:31:00.000-04:002008-05-04T23:31:00.000-04:00Michael -- Agree with your first paragraph, disagr...Michael -- Agree with your first paragraph, disagree with your second paragraph.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-80853522036524532008-05-02T21:03:00.000-04:002008-05-02T21:03:00.000-04:00I think you did a pretty good job explaining that ...I think you did a pretty good job explaining that we can't just "quit" laws... So I don't know what to disagree with you over. I guess I do not believe it is ever possible. It requires unanimous consent. Unanimous universal agreement, no? Even then - there are laws - they are just unanimously agreed upon, so their enforcement is completely invisible.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, there are a lot of really really bad, unfair laws. But I see that as inevitable. We can work towards making laws better, educating voters about the things that we think they should believe, but to erase the place of law in society would require people to believe in a common objective morality - or at least, moralities that do not directly contradict one another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-42092199881766849102008-05-02T19:13:00.000-04:002008-05-02T19:13:00.000-04:00I was just going to say "excellent piece anok" but...I was just going to say "excellent piece anok" but then I read all the comments and wanted to pick up on something kdawg68 said: "My take is that people need written instructions these days for how to put batteries in a flash light".<BR/><BR/>I think the instruction thing, and I see your point, is really an extension of the uber law making. People's ability to think for themselves is eroded as much by, for instance, written instruction as it is by TV, media et al. We have this entire unnecessary "support" structure which dumbs down almost all aspects of function. Mrs H jokes that there will soon be signs at the edge of the kerb stating "Warning! Kerb Ahead".<BR/><BR/>Further to that, the manufacturers include 'idiot guide' instructions in order that they can't be sued, via the very same legal system, when some idiot does electrocute himself, lose a digit or fall off the kerb.<BR/><BR/>And so the cycle repeats in ever intrusive law making...Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13071300726235352555noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-66280824518425370592008-05-02T10:42:00.000-04:002008-05-02T10:42:00.000-04:00Correct me if I am wrong, but tribes, while having...Correct me if I am wrong, but tribes, while having their elders and hierarchy, also work towards the survival of the tribe, the preservation of its knowledge and culture and its daily needs. I think when you are charged with preserving your very existence, you don't need laws so much as common sense and a desire to do what must be done. <BR/>I have one thing to add though. being a mom, I raised my kids without laws or rules. I talked to them about self respect and respect of others instead. Sure there are times that they are doing their own thing and I don't like it, but my kids never got in trouble,not for want of trying. They possess too much respect for themselves and for me to go in the direction that some would call lawlessness. <BR/>I have seen the backlash of over lording kind of parenting in other kids, not a good experience. A family is a tribe to me, right here in the modern world we live in.We don't need laws on that level and if not on that level than why anywhere else?LindaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03624659670781181099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-33681231747111613902008-05-02T00:44:00.000-04:002008-05-02T00:44:00.000-04:00You are quite right Anok. Or possibly "left". =PLa...You are quite right Anok. Or possibly "left". =P<BR/><BR/>Laws really do dumb down society, most people blindly follow orders by God and State, I think the legal system is set up to take away the ability for most people to make logical decisions on their own. A system set up for FAIL. I think reverse psychology could solve most of our problems. <BR/><BR/>But then again, I think "reverse" psychology is literally being applied, obviously, to create the mess we are in. To give the illusion of an iron grip that a corrupt judicial system and arbitrary government are actually authority figures capable of making decisions for it's citizens, keeping us all in line so to speak like a parent and it's children. But not really. How many people have faced corporal punishment in history or recently? Hmmm, yeah, quite a few. Kind of blows the theory of laws out of the water. <BR/><BR/>I also don't believe true "lawlessness" is possible. I happen to believe that most people still have MORALS, maybe they don't always use or display common sense but I think most of us have enough sense to know better within a reasonable percentage of the time. And common sense comes down to education, people can learn, it's time we stopped lowering the standards. These illusions just perpetuate the problems. <BR/><BR/>Complete lawlessness is a negative viewpoint and a baseless argument in my opinion. And so is the idea of corporal punishment.Statichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13875998739533600766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-16437321207001541292008-04-30T09:49:00.000-04:002008-04-30T09:49:00.000-04:00Kdawg, I see what you are saying now - I just misu...Kdawg, I see what you are saying now - I just misunderstood your point. Yup, in any grouping there will be "house rules" I think that it is human nature to try and organize "tribes' in that manner. However it is the manner in which it is done, and for what reason it is done that makes all the difference. Sure there are Elders - looked to for wisdom and guidance. But they are not dictators (well, OK, not usually, anyway). Decisions are often made cooperatively, rather than in a trickle down fashion. <BR/><BR/>That makes all the difference!<BR/><BR/>Jim, you ARE making a difference, in my opinion. So there :P<BR/><BR/>Matt, could you clarify your point? If a society or group is living under a warlord, then they are not living "in Anarchy" so to speak. That would be a dictatorship, of sorts. <BR/><BR/>Which tribes or villages are you speaking of?Anokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05675278947623136467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-49510392719090807372008-04-29T23:37:00.000-04:002008-04-29T23:37:00.000-04:00The are some countries in Africa that are pretty m...The are some countries in Africa that are pretty much an anarchy. Pretty much ruled by warlords. I don't think its working over there.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10025393306515044198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-59112995422050265922008-04-29T08:31:00.000-04:002008-04-29T08:31:00.000-04:00Anok it's funny, I would love to be there and it...Anok<BR/> it's funny, I would love to be there and it would be more than interesting as we are like minded. What kdawg said to you about Blogging to promote a book is what got me started more than 7 books ago and I have turned exclusively to waking people of all scopes up and it isn't working. <BR/> It reminds me of something my mother use to say when I was a little kid. "I can't help you unless you are willing to help yourself" most people are just not and are stupid enough to trust this misgovernment to do it for them. goodbye to them I say! Don't let the door hit you on the way out on second thought...jmsjoinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17631105639275375922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-79203049473381870372008-04-29T08:05:00.000-04:002008-04-29T08:05:00.000-04:00I didn't mean to suggest someone had to allow us t...I didn't mean to suggest someone had to allow us the right to think/speak/etc. They can't be "unalienable" if they only exist when a body of govt. allows them. <BR/><BR/>Being a spiritual person, I always laugh when children answer questions about where their rights come from and they respond "the president" or "the supreme court." Didn't mean to suggest I was confused by that. <BR/><BR/>Even in these tribal communes - someone is going to decide what is and what isn't allowed. Whether that's a group of chiefs or some council of elders. It's been a while since my last peace pipe session in the wigwam, so my memory of this is a bit waning. All I know is that we must ally with the French fur traders and drive these vile English from our lands, lest the Iroqouis run rampant over Algonquin territory! :) <BR/><BR/>Write the book - if you write it, people will read (said in a spooky sort of voice that you might hear while working in a cornfield). :)<BR/><BR/>KevinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-3240520411463311322008-04-28T23:31:00.000-04:002008-04-28T23:31:00.000-04:00I'm by nature an optimistic fellow. I'm also a fai...I'm by nature an optimistic fellow. I'm also a fairly serious student of history. And therefore I have every expectation that the philosophy you espouse is likely to come to fruition. <BR/><BR/>If we look at the rise and fall of all historic civilizations, we see the consistent growth of coercion. In fact, I no longer recognize the usefulness of the terms right or left, conservative or liberal. To me, the sliding scale of humanity is coersionist to non-coersionist. <BR/><BR/>Although all societies cycle between personal freedom and state-slavery, the larger multi-cycle trend has been towards freedom. It is a maturity of the species brought about by science, longevity, and prosperity. While I think we are (at least in the US) currently on the descending side of one of the small curves, there can be no doubt that personal freedom for the masses is better than in any previous "civilized" period in history.<BR/><BR/>It's simply a matter of humanity "growing up". And I think we are on that path. There will be more reversals, unfortunately, many of them bloody. <BR/><BR/>But there will come a day when most of humanity will say, "We no longer require the state as Father or Mother." Won't be in my time, but it will come.Simon Jesterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11561943975833521547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-8646375095211195582008-04-28T19:44:00.000-04:002008-04-28T19:44:00.000-04:00Carl, as I said earlier, awesome comment!Jim, You ...Carl, as I said earlier, awesome comment!<BR/><BR/>Jim, You and I think so much alike, boy I don't know if I want to be in the room when we start brainstorming and such!<BR/><BR/>Kev, you sly horse you ;) To answer your last question first, this is supposed to be me working out the ins and outs of a book. SO you guys and gals are getting super sneak previews!<BR/><BR/>But I do want to address one of your comments:<BR/><BR/><I>Too many of the beliefs and rights we hold dear are derived from law for me to give up on the concept completely. One might argue that laws were necessary to establish the freedom of thought and expression necessary for us to be discussing this topic here.</I><BR/><BR/>What you just said, essentially, is that some people got together, and decided to forcibly take away our ability to have beliefs and a say (it would seem, because I can't think of any other way our inherent and basic human rights could be stripped if not forcibly) then they got together and decided to <I>allow</I> us to have some of those rights back.<BR/><BR/>Nobody <I>allows</I> my freedom to think, believe, speak or express myself. That allowance is as natural and inherent as breathing. No, what people do is tell me that their laws and rule is what allows me to do this, and so I should continue to obey them, and support them because if they go away, so do my rights.<BR/><BR/>Rights I already had to begin with.....<BR/><BR/>Other than that I think we agree on most things, but that is a pet peeve of mine - and a mind set I would love to disintegrate from the popular opinion category so that people actually can be free.<BR/><BR/>Oh, as for the tribes and such - we agree. That said, I believe that any style of governance that goes too big - even democracy - will fail.<BR/><BR/>Of course I keep holding out for the philosophical reality to hit that society is in fact made up of individuals, and if the individuals act accordingly, so too will society ;)<BR/><BR/>good to see you by the way ;)Anokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05675278947623136467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-23078971246462057852008-04-28T19:05:00.000-04:002008-04-28T19:05:00.000-04:00I'm too conformist to go along with "no laws", but...I'm too conformist to go along with "no laws", but I agree with the sentiment that law can be corrupt, and that the application of law can favor certain groups over others.<BR/><BR/>Too many of the beliefs and rights we hold dear are derived from law for me to give up on the concept completely. One might argue that laws were necessary to establish the freedom of thought and expression necessary for us to be discussing this topic here. <BR/><BR/>I do think that we over legislate - and that since everything right down to presidential elections is decided in our courts (and indeed our rights are interpreted by judges), that our judicial/legislative branches have gone a bit super-nova. <BR/><BR/>What works for a remote tribe or smaller group of people, however, I don't think is as easily applied to the masses as we'd like. My take is that people need written instructions these days for how to put batteries in a flash light. It seems only logical that they'd need written instructions on what their "laws" are, as well as musings on how those laws are interpreted. <BR/><BR/>So, here's my unrelated question. You, my wise masked friend, have a penchant for lengthy posts, and much to say. Why the heck aren't you writing a book and then using your blog to push the book's promotion? Put your talents to use, grasshopper. <BR/><BR/>(meditating)ummmm, yim, yim, yim, yim, yim. <BR/>:)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-62927400359925625812008-04-28T18:40:00.000-04:002008-04-28T18:40:00.000-04:00Very good Anok! No law no order is ridiculous! ...Very good Anok!<BR/> No law no order is ridiculous!<BR/> Laws are made to be broken!<BR/> Laws don't bring order people do! <BR/> I do think though that sometimes locks keep some people honest! <BR/> However I do think as for acting properly laws make as many problems as they solve and good people will do good on their own no law necessary!jmsjoinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17631105639275375922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4342220819301909377.post-13187801768458584702008-04-28T15:42:00.000-04:002008-04-28T15:42:00.000-04:00Very well written and reasoned argument, I could n...Very well written and reasoned argument, I could not say it better myself. I agree with every single point you raise, and it is precisely the over abundance of laws that have created a nasty element in society who have no concern for their neighbors (loud music), irresponsible actions (drink driving etc) and a variety of other ills that affect our society and which don't affect those primitive societies we pity so much.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com